Ben Hogan Swing Options

[expuller]

Peter:

I am not asking for the "secret" to Ben Hogan's swing. Instead, I would like to know what you learned from studying Ben Hogan's swing. The swing you teach has many similarities (and some differences) from what I understand to be Hogan's Swings. I would like to hear your thoughts.

And, oh yes, what was the secret to Ben Hogan's swing?

[croker]

Dear Expuller,

This is a great and deep subject. My greatest admiration is for Ben Hogan, Homer Kelley, Tom Tomasello, Paul Runyan and others in the golfing arena.

In regards Ben Hogan, I can still remember my priviledged meeting with him in Fort Worth, Texas in 1981.

Before I go into the technical things that Ben Hogan contributed towards CGS, please let me have your view on what is similar and what is different between the "Hogan" swing mechanics and that of the Croker Golf System?

I ask all who read this post to also contribute here as I see an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the greatness of the "Ben Hogan swing."

KInd regards,

Peter Croker

[riddler]

Dear Expuller and Peter,

In my opinion there is much more similarities than the differences.
Well, I would started off with

Main Similarities
The take away CGS Using no. 2 pressure point to start the low loading
Ben Hogan Can really see it on You Tube (Hogan's Mystique) in the 3rd swing
Obvious is in the result of no. 4 pressure point being very close to the
body and club head lagging behind
The Low Loading CGS Using right hand no. 1 pressure point with vertical right wrist to fan the
club face open
Ben Hogan Club face being square on the take away and open when loading
Top of the Swing CGS As the result from correct path on the take away and loading action
the club face stay open
Ben Hogan Obvious on any video
Shift Happen CGS Force resulted in weight shift back to the left foot
Ben Hogan Obvious in Hogan's Swing
The Downsing CGS The result from looping action on the swing back caused the shaft to
return on the right elbow plane during downswing
Ben Hogan Although in Hogan's Video Lessson the downswing is initiated by hips turn
We can clearly see the hands and arms travel down returning the shaft
to the right elbow plane
The Impact CGS With the resisting pressure point no. 2 and hips release caused the right
(Beginning) elbow to bend evermore. Resulting in both hands being level
Ben Hogan Right elbow stay very close to the body and shaft more on level with
right arm
(Ending) CGS Both hands fully uncocked
Ben Hogan Club Head Toe Down
Follow Through CGS Pressure points 4 and 5 maintain
Ben Hogan Very obvious with Hogan's left arm pit being very close and ending
in tall finish

Differences (the only one I can actually see)
Top of Swing CGS Right Elbow being more infront of the body on top of the swing
Ben Hogan Right Elbow more to the side

Dear Expuller,

This is a great and deep subject. My greatest admiration is for Ben Hogan, Homer Kelley, Tom Tomasello, Paul Runyan and others in the golfing arena.

In regards Ben Hogan, I can still remember my priviledged meeting with him in Fort Worth, Texas in 1981.

Before I go into the technical things that Ben Hogan contributed towards CGS, please let me have your view on what is similar and what is different between the "Hogan" swing mechanics and that of the Croker Golf System?

I ask all who read this post to also contribute here as I see an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the greatness of the "Ben Hogan swing."

KInd regards,

Peter Croker

[riddler]

Dear Expuller and Peter, (RELOAD) correction on take away

In my opinion there is much more similarities than the differences.
Well, I would started off with

Main Similarities

The TAKE AWAY
CGS - Using no. 1 pressure point on left hand with resisting right hand
BEN HOGAN - Can really see it on You Tube (Hogan's Mystique) in the 3rd swing. Obvious is in the result of no. 4 pressure point being very close to the body and club head lagging behind

The LOW LOADING
CGS - Using right hand no. 1 pressure point with vertical right wrist to fan the club face open
BEN HOGAN - Club face being square on the take away and open when loading.

TOP of SWING
CGS - As the result from correct path on the take away and loading action the club face stay open
BEN HOGAN - Obvious on any video

SHIFT HAPPEN
CGS - Force resulted in weight shift back to the left foot
BEN HOGAN - Obvious in Hogan's Swing

The DOWNSWING
CGS - The result from looping action on the swing back caused the shaft to return on the right elbow plane during downswing
BEN HOGAN - Although in Hogan's Video Lessson the downswing is initiated by hips turn. We can clearly see the hands and arms travel down returning the shaft to the right elbow plane

The IMPACT (Beginning)
CGS - With the resisting pressure point no. 2 and hips release caused the right elbow to bend evermore. Resulting in both hands being level
BEN HOGAN - Right elbow stay very close to the body and shaft more on level with right arm

(End of IMPACT)
CGS - Both hands fully uncocked
BEN HOGAN - Club Head Toe Down

FOLLOW THROUGH
CGS - Pressure points 4 and 5 maintain
BEN HOGAN - Very obvious with Hogan's left arm pit being very close and ending in tall finish

Differences (the only one I can actually see)

TOP OF THE SWING
CGS - Right Elbow being more infront of the body on top of the swing
BEN HOGAN - Right Elbow more to the side

Dear Expuller,

This is a great and deep subject. My greatest admiration is for Ben Hogan, Homer Kelley, Tom Tomasello, Paul Runyan and others in the golfing arena.

In regards Ben Hogan, I can still remember my priviledged meeting with him in Fort Worth, Texas in 1981.

Before I go into the technical things that Ben Hogan contributed towards CGS, please let me have your view on what is similar and what is different between the "Hogan" swing mechanics and that of the Croker Golf System?

I ask all who read this post to also contribute here as I see an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the greatness of the "Ben Hogan swing."

KInd regards,

Peter Croker

Dear Expuller and Peter, (RELOAD) correction on take away and impact (resisting left hand)

In my opinion there is much more similarities than the differences.
Well, I would started off with

Main Similarities

The TAKE AWAY
CGS - Using no. 1 pressure point on left hand with resisting right hand
BEN HOGAN - Can really see it on You Tube (Hogan's Mystique) in the 3rd swing. Obvious is in the result of no. 4 pressure point being very close to the body and club head lagging behind

The LOW LOADING
CGS - Using right hand no. 1 pressure point with vertical right wrist to fan the club face open
BEN HOGAN - Club face being square on the take away and open when loading.

TOP of SWING
CGS - As the result from correct path on the take away and loading action the club face stay open
BEN HOGAN - Obvious on any video

SHIFT HAPPEN
CGS - Force resulted in weight shift back to the left foot
BEN HOGAN - Obvious in Hogan's Swing

The DOWNSWING
CGS - The result from looping action on the swing back caused the shaft to return on the right elbow plane during downswing
BEN HOGAN - Although in Hogan's Video Lessson the downswing is initiated by hips turn. We can clearly see the hands and arms travel down returning the shaft to the right elbow plane

The IMPACT (Beginning)
CGS - With the resisting left hand and hips release caused the right elbow to bend evermore. Resulting in both hands being level
BEN HOGAN - Right elbow stay very close to the body and shaft more on level with right arm

(End of IMPACT)
CGS - Both hands fully uncocked
BEN HOGAN - Club Head Toe Down

FOLLOW THROUGH
CGS - Pressure points 4 and 5 maintain
BEN HOGAN - Very obvious with Hogan's left arm pit being very close and ending in tall finish

Differences (the only one I can actually see)

TOP OF THE SWING
CGS - Right Elbow being more infront of the body on top of the swing
BEN HOGAN - Right Elbow more to the side

Dear Expuller,

This is a great and deep subject. My greatest admiration is for Ben Hogan, Homer Kelley, Tom Tomasello, Paul Runyan and others in the golfing arena.

In regards Ben Hogan, I can still remember my priviledged meeting with him in Fort Worth, Texas in 1981.

Before I go into the technical things that Ben Hogan contributed towards CGS, please let me have your view on what is similar and what is different between the "Hogan" swing mechanics and that of the Croker Golf System?

I ask all who read this post to also contribute here as I see an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of the greatness of the "Ben Hogan swing."

KInd regards,

Peter Croker

[expuller]

Riddler: great job!

Here are some of the differences that I perceive from reading what others have said about Hogan (not: I am NOT a great observer of the golf swing!):
1) Hogan at the top of his swing had his left hand more bent (and maybe more pronated)
2) He had a very similar hip turn (without any need to shift his body forward to start the swing), but he powered the first part of the downswing by his hip turn, pushing off with his right leg.
3) His whole swing was more of body swing, although he did say he wished he had two right hands (and I can see why in the context of the Croker swing).

If I had to guess, Hogan had three goals in developing his new swing after his accident. The first was to have a swing that didn't further injure his body. Another one of his goals was to avoid his hated hook. The third goal was to do all this without giving up power. It is interesting that these appear to be part of Peter's swing goals (not sure about avoiding the hook, as oppose to avoiding a slice) and one that he achieves!

Whatever the case, Hogan's swing is a seamless whole, a majestic thing of beauty. This makes it hard to perceive what he did.

[riddler]

Dear Expuller,


If I may and with permission from Peter. having watched closely to the old footages of some golfing greats such as Bobby Jones, Julius Boros, Mickey Wright, Sam Byrd are some of the samples on how clubs are being so balance and control. It seems like they found a way or not the only way to take the club back with those small forged clubs and persimmons.
I don't know how many people would really realize that croker's tap,tap,tap push, push, hit is the answer and even some of his long time student turned master seems love missing it all.
Croker's push to balance with his hands couldn't be any simpler. Nobody could do it better with that explanation on how clubs should be taken back and released on the downswing through impact. (maybe start with the sand wedge).
Unfortunately, I wish I could learn this some 32 years ago. But never too late to get the message out.
Wish to hear from Peter.

Best Regards,
Riddler

Riddler: great job!

Here are some of the differences that I perceive from reading what others have said about Hogan (not: I am NOT a great observer of the golf swing!):
1) Hogan at the top of his swing had his left hand more bent (and maybe more pronated)
2) He had a very similar hip turn (without any need to shift his body forward to start the swing), but he powered the first part of the downswing by his hip turn, pushing off with his right leg.
3) His whole swing was more of body swing, although he did say he wished he had two right hands (and I can see why in the context of the Croker swing).

If I had to guess, Hogan had three goals in developing his new swing after his accident. The first was to have a swing that didn't further injure his body. Another one of his goals was to avoid his hated hook. The third goal was to do all this without giving up power. It is interesting that these appear to be part of Peter's swing goals (not sure about avoiding the hook, as oppose to avoiding a slice) and one that he achieves!

Whatever the case, Hogan's swing is a seamless whole, a majestic thing of beauty. This makes it hard to perceive what he did.

[croker]

Dear Riddler and Expuller,

Great job in getting the discussion going!

As "Expuller" mentions, Ben Hogan's swing was a seemless flow of coordinated power in motion and therefore analysing the swing in motion is impossible to prove what is causing what. All you see is a high speed automatic wind and unwind into and through the ball with all his full shots.

To define the differences between Ben Hogan's swing and that as defined in the Croker Golf System is something that I find difficult.

However if you were to read the "Modern Fundamentals by Ben Hogan" you can clearly see several differences.

In Ben Hogan's Book, the leading hip is given a major responsibility for the downswing motion.

In the Croker Golf System the leading hip's rotation and consequent power it helps transfer to the golf ball is triggered and controlled by the hand and arm action from transition to and through impact and well into follow through and finish.

I am in the process of making a small video download that will be available here to explain this most important breakthrough which is at the heart of the CGS Program from chip shot to drive.

For those interested in Hogan's magical swing please feel free to add your comments.

Kind regards,

Peter

[mef]

As a long time admirer of the Hogan swing I believe it represents a great model for the Croker Golf System, though one should first agree on which Hogan swing we are talking about. I have read both of Hogan's books, the "5 Fundamentals" and Power Golf, as well as Andrisani's "The Hogan Way" and Leadbetter's "The Fundamentals of Hogan". On the basis of this material and after extensive study of Hogan video tapes, it seems to me that we can distinguish between the "early" Hogan swing, which can be viewed by clicking on the following link :http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=d1FQ5DI4vCU&feature=related, and the "later" Hogan swing, which can be viewed here http://www.youtube.com/watchv=9D5oDen_qHM&...feature=related. They are two very different swings, and I believe the Croker system set-up and backswing are much closer to the early Hogan. More specifically, the early Hogan set-up has the leg structure more skewed to the left, more K shaped than the mature Hogan, who has the legs more centred and more neutral. This has an important consequence on the backswing: the early Hogan moves his left knee more outwards than to the right (a move that is well explained by Simon Owen in one of the earlier "Members" downloads). This in turn leads him to a position at the top in which he is almost "sitting" on his left leg, with a slight hint of reverse pivot. From here, it was only natural for Hogan to recommend "clearing the hips as fast as possible", the single bit of advice that has most confused golfers all over the world and that has ruined many a swing. Indeed, most people associate the Hogan swig with the mature Hogan who, from a more neutral leg position, let his left knee move much more rightwards, leading to a position at the top from which he first needed a subtle but very definite shift of the hips to the left, before being able to unleash their rotation. Anybody who has tried to emulate the mature Hogan whilst trying to follow his early advice of "clearing the hips as fast as possible" will most certainly has run into disaster and frustration. I believe the Croker system puts you in a se-up position that encourages your left knee to move outwards, avoiding the need for any significant weight shift and allowing the golfer to put controlled power onto the ball. There are obviously other important differences between the Croker swing and the early Hogan, for example in the grip (for which the later Hogan is in my opinion a better model), in the length of the backswing, in the angle of attack to the ball and in the follow-through, but on the whole I personally believe it is better model for the CGS.
Best regards to all,
mef

[KevCarter]

May I make an observation not based so much upon Hogan's swing, but on VJ Trolio's interpretation of the secret in Hogan's swing?

http://www.thefinalmissingpiece.com/index.html

Scroll to the bottom of the page for VJ's swing and commentary...

Whether it is really the "secret" or not is debatable, but I really like the motion. Trolio speaks of Hogan's weight moving a little left on the back stroke due to his hips moving towards the target as the club is moving to the top of the backstroke. This is a feeling I really like as I feel it helps keep my head centered during my stroke, and it helps keep my chubby body from getting "stuck" over my right foot.

At approx 7:20 of your 2nd video where Mr. Hart is doing his analysis of the Croker system, I definitely see this move in your swing. Perhaps it is a conscious part of your swing, perhaps automatic, or perhaps even a misconception on my part during the forced slow motion demonstration?

Mr. Croker, what do you think about that motion? Part of your swing?

I am a longtime golf professional, but new to TGM. I am studying hard and really enjoy your TGM video series. The videos of Mr. Hart analyzing your system are my first introduction to a professional discussing component make up in a swing pattern. Excellent stuff!

Thank you,
Kevin

[croker]

Dear Kevin and All,

Firstly a Merry Christmas to you all and may a gift of a better golf swing and game come from your time reading and contributing to this Forum.

Ben Hogan is my hero in the world of golf and having the chance to meet him and discuss golf with him is something I will always cherrish in my memories.

He dug it out of the dirt and what he produced as a model swing can serve all of us well.

His body pivot was a balance and counter balance to the loading and unloading of the hands, arms, and club.

It is the premise of the Croker Golf System that the "Hands are the Source of Motion" and as such cause the body to move as dictated by the hands. Hogan says he wished he had 3 right hands to hit the ball with.

There are many points in the "Hogan" swing that we can isolate out and give importance to. It is the total motion that brings it together and is what is required to compress the ball effectively.

I believe that if Ben Hogan was alive and was in this discussion here, he would be in agreement that it was his hands that were responsible for his powerful hip action and he would probably find things that he would want to change in those swings that we so admire now.

Merry Christams,

Peter

[croker]

Dear Kevin,

This video by VJ Trolio is very well done and he has a classic "Hoganisque" swing.

The pivot he demonstrates is in tune with CGS Pivot definition.
Perhaps the difference is that with the Online Step by Step program of video downloads, there is a more detailed explanation on what the feet, knees, hips, and shoulders do in the pivot and then how this is all tied back to the "educated hand" action that drives it all at the higher levels.

Thanks for providing such great reference material and I certainly would like to meet up with VJ in the nearest future.

It would be great to exchange ideas.

Kind regards, Merry christmas,

Peter

[KevCarter]

Thank you sir, you have a beautiful swing as well.

I have been looking for a centered pattern, and yours may be the one for me to use and teach my students. You explain everything in such a thorough manner.

I hope you and VJ Trolio get to meet, he is a really good guy and a really solid TGM guy as well! You would have a blast comparing notes.

Thanks again for all the great videos.

Merry Christmas Peter!

Kevin

Dear Kevin,

This video by VJ Trolio is very well done and he has a classic "Hoganisque" swing.

The pivot he demonstrates is in tune with CGS Pivot definition.
Perhaps the difference is that with the Online Step by Step program of video downloads, there is a more detailed explanation on what the feet, knees, hips, and shoulders do in the pivot and then how this is all tied back to the "educated hand" action that drives it all at the higher levels.

Thanks for providing such great reference material and I certainly would like to meet up with VJ in the nearest future.

It would be great to exchange ideas.

Kind regards, Merry christmas,

Peter

[tubeseeker]

The differences I see and maybe they were explained here already and I missed it
in many hogan swings he shifts little right in the backswing, albeit only a little, croker stays centered with the base of spine
Hogan also seems to fall left at the start down more then croker, since I am not able to frame by frame croker, maybe he has no fall left
would be nice to see some video of the croker swing that we could just watch, maybe a few different players performing it.
good luck in your golf ventures
Neil

[croker]

Dear Neil,

Ben Hogan is my pin up in regards "swing technique!"

As great as Ben Hogan's swing is, he would have liked to polish it some more and his pivot could have been more centred.

In regards my swing, I will organise to post it on this Forum in the near future.

At present we are about to play the Victorian Senior (Legends) Open at my home Club - The Dunes - in Rye, Victoria.
This filming project will have to wait until after this.

Kind regards,

Peter

[tubeseeker]

Dear Neil,

Ben Hogan is my pin up in regards "swing technique!"

As great as Ben Hogan's swing is, he would have liked to polish it some more and his pivot could have been more centred.

In regards my swing, I will organise to post it on this Forum in the near future.

At present we are about to play the Victorian Senior (Legends) Open at my home Club - The Dunes - in Rye, Victoria.
This filming project will have to wait until after this.

Kind regards,

Peter

good luck in the Tourney Peter

[Bob Martin]

Hi Peter,

I notice you mention Paul Runyan in this post. I'm curious what you took from his teachings. I learned the game at La Jolla CC in 1962 from Paul. Used to love watching him hit pitches and sandshots. Pure artistry.

At that time, he emphasized grip, stance, hand release, swing plane and balance. I lost some of this in the past many years and am learning it again new with you system.

Bob

[croker]

Dear Bob,

Paul Runyan was an inspiration and great coach to me also. The areas that he helped most in were the "Chip and Run(yan), putting and also the idea of handle leading in the takeaway similar to Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan.

The difference that has come through is that in the Croker Golf System we teach you to "PUSH" on the handle end - not pull. This way the hip and shoulder pivot are enhanced right from the takeaway onward.

I would say that without Paul Runyan's influence along with Ben Hogan and Homer Kelley's "Golfing Machine" book, the Croker Golf System would not have evolved into the totally aligned defining of the fundamentals of an orthodox golf swing as presented on -

http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/stepProgram.htm.

I look forward to you and many others signing up for the full "online CGS Program." I guarantee that you will be further enlightened with what is presented there.

Thanks for recognising Paul Runyan's influence in the Croker Golf System as you have gotten to know thus far.

Keep "PUSHING!"

Kind regards,

Peter